EVO vs. ID (Part II)

[15:40:57] {nule} bush wants equal time for “intelligent design”
[15:41:07] {ormus} yeah, i saw that
[15:41:12] {nule} yay
[15:41:14] {nule} go us
[15:41:45] {ormus} i dunno how i feel about that
[15:42:15] {nule} he has to be bowing to somebody’s demands to push that little button
[15:42:17] {ormus} i have no problem with intelligent design discussions going on in classrooms
[15:43:02] {nule} depends on what you mean by discussions
[15:43:07] {ormus} yeah
[15:43:13] {ormus} that’s why i dunno how i feel about that
[15:44:03] {nule} it’s a waste of time to cover a theory that hasn’t been tested or appeared in any peer review journals.
[15:44:22] {ormus} ah, i see what you mean
[15:44:30] {ormus} but i don’t think it’s a waste of time
[15:44:54] {ormus} i wouldn’t think it a waste of time if one student in class threw out a theory all his/her own
[15:45:26] {nule} answering student questions is not a waste of time, of course
[15:45:43] {nule} but scheduling time specifically to cover psuedo-science is
[15:45:47] {nule} imo
[15:45:50] {ormus} ah
[15:46:04] {ormus} i think i agree
[15:46:09] {nule} “and next week, students, we’ll cover ESP and telekinesis”
[15:46:20] {ormus} i just would want to entertain anything students wanted to talk about, i guess
[15:46:29] {ormus} throw out some alternative theories
[15:46:36] {ormus} if one happens to involve a supreme being, so be it
[15:46:42] {ormus} doesn’t mean it’s religious, imo
[15:47:04] {nule} I don’t have a problem covering religion or religious ideas in school
[15:47:25] {nule} as long as it’s done equitably
[15:47:25] {ormus} well…as far as advancing that ideology, is what i meant
[15:47:34] {ormus} or what i was thinking, anyway
[15:47:40] {nule} I get you.
[15:48:16] {ormus} at any rate, i see some people so blindedly bone-headed, i’d hate to be the same way in favor of evolution
[15:49:04] {ormus} but i’m not sure how one would go about “covering” intelligent design
[15:49:25] {ormus} from a science standpoint, seems like it’d be “oh, and by the way…”
[15:54:56] * nule … must … escape … !
[16:00:32] {baal} religion doesn’t belong in a science classroom
[16:00:43] {baal} if you want to cover intelligent design do it in a theology class
[16:01:19] {ormus} i don’t see how intelligent design necessarily means religion
[16:01:25] {baal} I think our public schools could really benefit from a mandatory “intro to theology” class that covers all of the major religions (including atheism)
[16:01:55] {baal} intelligent design is not science
[16:02:16] {ormus} not exactly, i suppose
[16:02:25] {baal} it definitly involves science
[16:02:40] {baal} and yes, it’s a grey area
[16:03:00] {baal} and you could probobly argue that theoretical physics falls in the same category
[16:03:12] {baal} but we’re not talking about graduate level college work here
[16:03:16] {ormus} but saying something was intelligently designed doesn’t mean religion to me
[16:03:17] {baal} we’re talking about high school
[16:03:28] {baal} stick to what we know – cover theology in a theology class
[16:04:05] {ormus} i don’t think putting the blinders on is exactly in the spirit of science, either
[16:04:31] {baal} certainly isn’t
[16:04:42] {ormus} again, i don’t see how intelligent design must be theology
[16:04:50] {baal} but high school biology isn’t exactly for developing new theories on life
[16:05:41] {ormus} no, but mentioning other possibilities doesn’t seem like a bad idea to me
[16:05:51] {ormus} other explanations
[16:06:16] {baal} do you study other theories of geometry in math class?
[16:06:40] {baal} (i’m still speaking in high school terms here)
[16:06:59] {ormus} theories of geometry?
[16:07:09] {ormus} seems to me they’re mainly axioms at that point
[16:07:37] {ormus} so no
[16:07:55] {baal} newtonian versus euclidian
[16:09:12] {ormus} ah
[16:09:14] {ormus} hmmm
[16:09:15] {baal} anyhow
[16:09:16] {ormus} dunno
[16:09:19] {ormus} i don’t think we did
[16:09:41] {baal} my point is that intelligent design doesn’t have a place in our high school classrooms
[16:09:46] {baal} biology classrooms
[16:09:47] {baal} sorry
[16:09:58] {baal} that debate belongs on a much higher level
[16:10:20] {baal} that argument is just another way that the friggin right-wingers are trying to get god in the classroom
[16:10:23] {baal} and it really pisses me off
[16:10:45] {ormus} what annoys me is that one side is typically so defensive of anyone talking about the other
[16:10:56] {baal} i don’t care if someone brings it up
[16:11:15] {baal} students have questions
[16:11:18] {baal} that’s normal
[16:11:41] {ormus} i guess i have this idea of evolution being taught with a “alternative views” forum or something during class
[16:11:54] {baal} waste of time
[16:12:18] {ormus} thinking outside what you’re taught is not waste of time, imo
[16:12:19] {baal} we can’t get our friggin students to know what they’re supposed to NOW without bringing in more
[16:12:57] {baal} spending time talking about id isn’t teaching someone to think outside the box…
[16:13:00] {baal} you can’t “teach” that
[16:13:11] {ormus} you can foster it, though
[16:13:14] {ormus} and that’s what i’m talking about
[16:13:17] {baal} by fostering questions
[16:13:25] {baal} not by forcing somethign down their throats
[16:13:25] {ormus} right
[16:13:39] {ormus} well…i’m not sure what there is to force…
[16:13:44] {baal} sure there is
[16:13:51] {ormus} as i mentioned earlier, seems like id amounts to an “oh, by the way…some people think…”
[16:13:57] {baal} “now class we have to cover intelligent design”
[16:14:09] {baal} some people think the fscking world is flat!
[16:14:16] {baal} and we don’t learn that in geography!
[16:14:42] {ormus} we can’t reasonably say that’s not true?
[16:15:04] {baal} we can’t reasonably say that id is true either.
[16:15:25] {ormus} we know a lot more about the earth not being flat
[16:15:40] {baal} you get my point though..
[16:15:45] {ormus} i’d take issue with anyone who purports to “know” how life came to be
[16:15:50] {baal} (yes, that was an extreme example)
[16:15:52] {ormus} evolution makes sense to me
[16:16:02] {ormus} but i’m not gonna say i know it to be the case
[16:16:08] {baal} noone is trying to say id is false, just that there is zero proof it’s true
[16:16:18] {baal} hence, religion
[16:16:22] {baal} faith
[16:16:36] {ormus} i don’t see that requisite connection
[16:16:47] {ormus} life is just hand-formed, that’s all
[16:16:51] {ormus} maybe not even by a god
[16:16:57] {baal} doesn’t matter
[16:16:58] {ormus} maybe just a higher life form
[16:17:01] {baal} buddhists dont’ believe in a god
[16:17:06] {baal} and they’re religous
[16:17:24] {baal} theology doesn’t necessarily need to be “higher power” based either
[16:17:52] {baal} there is no proof that we’re anything more than a spot of luck on a rock
[16:18:02] {ormus} right
[16:18:03] {baal} anyone that says otherwise is deluded
[16:18:30] {ormus} i just don’t understand the fight to keep the very mention of id out of the class
[16:18:40] {baal} from the teachers? – I do
[16:18:50] {baal} if a student brings it up, fine
[16:19:01] {ormus} makes it sound like science is scared of the notion to me
[16:19:31] {baal} science likes to keep guessing out of elementry biology
[16:19:45] {ormus} errr
[16:19:49] {baal} science isn’t about guesswork at that level
[16:19:51] {ormus} and eovlution doesn’t involve guessing?
[16:20:19] {ormus} i guess there’s a distinction to teaching id and bringing it up
[16:20:26] {ormus} *between, rather
[16:20:45] {baal} so, what’s to prevent the teacher from going further with it?
[16:20:48] {ormus} honestly, if i were a teacher…i’d be interested to hear kids bat it around
[16:20:53] {ormus} then i’d get fired
[16:20:58] {ormus} and that’s just not right, imo
[16:21:10] {baal} it’s a public school
[16:21:18] {baal} you have to cater to the least common denominator
[16:21:37] {baal} and there is really no possible benefit to bringing that up
[16:21:39] {ormus} what do you mean?
[16:21:53] {ormus} no possible benefit?
[16:21:54] {baal} by teaching facts, you’re not going to offend anyone
[16:21:58] {ormus} it would make them THINK, man
[16:22:11] {baal} there are a thousand other ways to do that that won’t piss people off
[16:22:32] {baal} our schools _suck_
[16:22:52] {ormus} don’t get me going on that one…it’s struck me that we’re way too conceren about “upsetting” our kids
[16:22:57] {ormus} like the whole nor more red pens thing
[16:22:58] {baal} there are a myriad of other things that our wonderful legislators can do to help them out
[16:23:04] {ormus} or not more F’s
[16:23:12] {baal} that’s entirely different
[16:23:12] {ormus} just DS
[16:23:19] {baal} I’m not talking about upsetting kids
[16:23:19] {ormus} “deferred success”
[16:23:25] {ormus} oh
[16:23:30] {baal} I’m wholly into giving more fs
[16:23:34] {ormus} so are you talking parents, then?
[16:23:36] {baal} flunk the idiots
[16:23:38] {baal} yes
[16:23:55] {ormus} well man, either way parents are gonna be pissed, sounds like
[16:24:00] {ormus} depending on where you are
[16:24:06] {baal} it’s fine to piss someone off for a reason
[16:24:12] {baal} if a child does sh*tty, they get an F
[16:24:13] {ormus} i.e. K.C. vs. Atlanta,vs. Cali
[16:24:25] {baal} I don’t care if little johnny has 3 football games a week and you both have to work
[16:24:33] {baal} BUT
[16:24:43] {ormus} well, mention id and people are gonna be pissed
[16:24:52] {baal} yes, they are
[16:24:53] {ormus} don’t mention id, and people are gonna be pissed
[16:25:02] {baal} least common denominator
[16:25:11] {ormus} ummm
[16:25:11] {baal} without mentioning ID, are the kids going to be less well off
[16:25:14] {ormus} people being poissed?
[16:25:26] {baal} do you feel like you’ve been slighted because you didn’t hear about ID when you were a kid?
[16:25:45] {baal} no no, stick to the facts
[16:25:51] {baal} (the denominator thing)
[16:25:54] {ormus} i don’t feel slighted that i didn’t grow up learning thaere was water on mars, either
[16:26:06] {ormus} and that was an actual FACT i missed out on
[16:26:12] {baal} heh
[16:26:14] {ormus} so no, i don’t feel slighted
[16:26:19] {baal} exactly
[16:26:27] {baal} so you didn’t lose out on anything
[16:26:41] {ormus} i’d hate to think it was because i was being shielded from something, though
[16:26:44] {baal} I guess it comes down to whether ID religion or not
[16:26:48] {ormus} that i was being spoonfed
[16:26:57] {baal} you’re being spoonfed in school man
[16:26:58] {baal} like it or not
[16:27:10] {ormus} it’s all a matter of degree
[16:27:18] {ormus} and yes, THAT makes me feel slighted
[16:27:21] {baal} you have to grow up before you can go out on your own
[16:27:29] {baal} (academiclly)
[16:27:59] {baal} even in college, you’re being spoonfed for your first 2 years
[16:28:13] {nule} .
[16:28:14] {baal} really those last 2 (and any graduate school) you’re doing some thinking on your own
[16:28:27] {ormus} and yes, i believe religion must involve a higher power
[16:28:38] {nule} I’m a higher power
[16:28:40] {ormus} but i don’t think id is necessarily religion
[16:28:52] {baal} theology, not religion, my bad
[16:28:53] {ormus} unless it is a religious thing, by definition
[16:29:05] {ormus} nule had to clarify something like that once for me
[16:29:16] * nule looks around
[16:29:18] {nule} hrm?
[16:29:51] {nule} I see I missed a good conversation
[16:29:51] {ormus} i think it was something about id being more immediate than just that a higher power created the big bang
[16:30:05] {ormus} that things around us were actually “hand formed”
[16:30:07] {baal} heh
[16:30:10] {baal} either way
[16:30:12] {baal} same thing
[16:30:41] {baal} keep it the hell out of public school science classrooms
[16:30:46] {nule} the big bang was created by a pair of intergalactic breasts colliding
[16:30:56] {nule} it was beautiful to behold
[16:30:57] {baal} I’d be just as against bringing theology into a math classroom
[16:31:03] {ormus} id isn’t necessarily theology, either
[16:31:04] {baal} although I’m sure GW will figure out a way to do that
[16:31:14] {ormus} in the same way it’s not necessarily religion
[16:31:25] {baal} we’ll call it intelligent multiplication
[16:31:54] {baal} hey, we can’t define what it _is_ – lets teach it in science class!
[16:32:07] {nule} that was kind of my point before
[16:32:21] {ormus} what what is?
[16:32:29] {baal} and my point that it belongs in theology – or maybe philosophy
[16:32:37] {baal} or some combination of the 2
[16:32:50] {baal} ID
[16:32:51] {nule} there’s not really a verifyable theory behind ID
[16:33:01] {baal} there’s not really ANY theory behind ID
[16:33:15] {nule} a theory has to be testable
[16:33:26] {nule} there for ID isn’t really science
[16:33:28] {baal} but nicely enough with no defining theory, we can’t prove it wrong
[16:33:30] {nule} therefore, rather
[16:33:40] {nule} which makes it religion
[16:33:49] {nule} since it’s about belief
[16:33:54] {baal} ding ding ding
[16:33:55] {ormus} i disagree there
[16:34:07] {ormus} i could talk all i want about id and not believe it
[16:34:21] {baal} do you think ALL high school kids can do that?
[16:34:31] {baal} do you not think children are impressionable?
[16:34:44] {nule} we can talk about religions we don’t believe in…
[16:34:50] {ormus} man, i hate to bar topics of discussion from a classroom
[16:34:52] {nule} they’re still religions, though
[16:34:59] {baal} you’re not barring it
[16:35:05] {baal} if a student brings it up, fine
[16:35:09] {nule} yeah, you’re just saying it’s not real science
[16:35:24] {baal} but for an organized discussion, it belongs in a theology / philosophy class
[16:35:29] * nule smashes a creationist and places them under a microscope
[16:36:01] {baal} but the problem that the creationist / religious folk have with that is that their theory is lumped in with others
[16:36:04] {baal} and they don’t like that
[16:36:15] {baal} it needs to be taught in a SCIENCE classroom!
[16:36:42] {nule} right – they’re seeking legitimacy through means other than science uses to make things legitimate
[16:37:02] {baal} truth by association
[16:37:17] {baal} essentially
[16:37:24] {baal} or plausibility by association
[16:37:28] {baal} would be more correct
[16:37:36] {baal} I think
[16:38:12] {baal} either way, to be honest with you, I’d wager 90% of the people FOR ID are not like you, ormus
[16:38:32] {baal} it’s just a way to try to reverse the scopes trial
[16:38:41] {baal} now that the right-wing has majority control
[16:39:03] {baal} anyhow, I need pop
[16:39:04] {baal} brb
[16:39:23] {nule} I’m headed hom
[16:39:24] {nule} e
[16:39:41] {nule} bbiab
[16:39:46] {ormus} but remember, if ID can’t be brought-up by the teacher, doesn’t that mean it can’t be brought up in order to point out it’s not really science?
[16:39:47] {ormus} 🙂
[16:48:50] {baal} oooh ormus
[16:49:06] {ormus} .
[16:49:12] {baal} i’d think it’d be appropriate for a teacher to bring up that it’s not science if a student asks about it
[16:49:15] {baal} bwa ha
[16:49:22] {ormus} ah
[16:49:34] {ormus} fair enough
[16:50:15] {baal} now I think if we forbade teachers from allowing questions about it, we’d be doing students a disservice
[16:50:27] {baal} know what I mean?
[16:50:47] {baal} I just don’t want isabellas science teacher trying to teach her religion
[16:51:38] {baal} and if her and morgan/gary^3 come home from biology class talking about how ID makes more sense than evolution, the katana will come out
[16:52:20] {ormus} i hope it’s a boy
[16:52:28] {baal} G-3?
[16:52:31] {baal}
[16:52:47] {baal} doesn’t matter to me at this point, I’m already soaked in estrogen
[16:53:13] {ormus} the name morgan doesn’t do much for me
[16:53:25] {baal} well, it’s short for Morganna
[16:53:30] {ormus} true
[16:53:35] {baal} and I like that name
[16:53:42] {ormus} just seems like a masculine name
[16:53:48] {ormus} oh wait
[16:53:57] {ormus} i guess it’s that, too
[16:54:24] {baal} if it’s a girl, it has to be some sort of evil name
[16:54:28] {baal} because isabella is really good
[16:54:35] {baal} so I figure her sister will be pure evil
[16:54:36] {ormus} true